QUESTION: 1 “What is your response to the Biblical view of God as a Trinity? Why do you believe that?”
Mormon Response: The trinity must first be defined as a non-biblical term, and we must understand why before we see what the Bible teaches us about God. The term “Trinity” does not appear once within the standard King James Version of the Bible, nor in several other translations. As the Harper's Bible Dictionary States: “The formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the Fourth and Fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament].”[1] The formal view of the Trinity was created by men and refined in various councils, such as the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD, the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD, and others. Through these councils, various “creeds” were established to define God. The well known Nicene Creed and later refined Athanasian Creed put forth the following definition of God:
“We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in unity; neither
confounding the Persons:
nor dividing the substance. For there is one Person of the Father,
another of the Son; and
another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son,
and of the Holy
Ghost, is all one: the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal. Such as the
Father is, such is the
Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated, the Son
uncreated, and the Holy
Ghost uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible:
and the Holy
Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal: and the
Holy Ghost eternal.
And yet they are not three eternals: but one eternal. As also there are
not three incomprehensibles,
nor three uncreated: but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible.
So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty: and the Holy
Ghost Almighty. And
yet they are not three Almighties: but one Almighty. So the Father is
God, the Son is God:
and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods: but one
God. So likewise the
Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not
three Lords: but one
This man-made definition of
God is preposterous to say the three persons in the Godhead are
incomprehensible, uncreated, and are not three, but one being. The Bible
clearly does not support such a view. We firmly believe that God the Father,
and His Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings. We
firmly declare that God the Father and Jesus Christ have individual bodies of
flesh and bone; whereas the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit. Let us go over
several passages from the Bible[3]
that proves them as such.
Let us look in the Creation in Gen. 1:26-27, “And God
said, let us make man in our image,
after our likeness... So God created man in his own image, in
the image of God created he him;...” Here we see there's more
than one person next to God in whose image we are created. We can also see that
we, with our physical body, were created in His image. If our image is a
physical body and we are after His image, God must have a physical body as well.
Through the Bible, we also know that Jesus has a resurrected, tangible body
(Matthew 28; Mark 16; Luke 24; John 20; Acts 1:1-3) and God's person is the
express image of Jesus Christ's person and they are two separate beings
(Hebrews 1:1-3). An account that shows very clearly that God the Father, Jesus
Christ, and the Holy Ghost being three separate beings is found at Jesus
baptism by John. This account is found in Matthew 3:13-17; Mark 1:9-11, and
Luke 3:21-22 and tells of Jesus in His physical body is baptized and
straightway out of the water, the Holy Ghost, as a separate entity, descended
like a dove. Then
God spoke from the heavens saying: “This is my beloved Son,
in whom I am well pleased.” To suggest that God the
Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are the same person in this account
suggests that Jesus had a split personality and was practicing ventriloquism
which is plain foolishness.
There are several other accounts that, if three are the same person,
suggests this same thing such as Jesus praying to the Father in Matthew 26:39;
Luke 22:42; John 17, and others. There are other instances that describe the
three persons in the Godhead as separate, many mentioned on the reference page.[4] Now to address the
passage that says in John 10:30 among similar others, “I and my
Father are one.” This is not literal.
It has been shown that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three
separate persons, yet Jesus mentions they are one. They are not one in person,
but one in purpose as shown in John 5:19 (19-23). To say they are one in
entity, from this passage, refutes the other instances that show the three are
separate beings. This also means the idea of them as one being must be void,
seeing that all passages are truth, and if that idea is literal, it shows
falsity in the Bible, therefore voiding the Bible itself. This in turn voids
the idea that there is a God. To continue on the subject as they are one. If God
the Father and Jesus Christ are one entity, explain the passage mentioned by
John in chapter 17 verse 11: “And now I am no more in
the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep
through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as
we are.” (See also Romans 12:5; 1 Cor. 6:17; and Gal. 3:28). We full
well know what Jesus means when saying these words, but if we are to take the
meaning that the Father and Christ are one in entity, we must say that for these
passages. If we do so, then we may full well say we are one in Christ and
Christ is one in the Father. Does this mean we too are part of the Trinity? Of
course we are not, and that idea is proven even more false.
To say the Trinity as defined as God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ,
and the Holy Ghost being uncreated and the same being, shows that men “...know
not the thoughts of the Lord, neither understand they his counsel...” (Micah
4:12).
Yours truly:
Stuart Roskelley
Nick Novakovich
Christian Response: Thank you very much for
your candid response to my question and for taking the time to answer it. I
have read your response over a few times. It has raised some concerns of which
I will now address in my response.
To begin with, I never said the term “Trinity” is to be found in the
Bible. In my question I specifically stated “...the Biblical view of
God as a Trinity...” I am well aware that the word “Trinity” is not to
be found in the standard King James Version of the Bible, nor is it to be found
in any other Bible version that I am aware of. The term “Trinity” is just a
theological term to describe the nature and Person of God. It is a term to
describe the triune nature of God as seen in the numerous Scriptures that
reveal His Person and nature throughout the Bible. The name “God” in our
English versions of the Bible in the Hebrew, is Elohim, which is a
plural noun. Meaning more than one Person is present in the Godhead. Though
three distinct Persons, yet one God. More about that later.
You stated that “The formal view of the Trinity was created by men” and then later “refined in various councils” then you went on to list three historic councils. The Trinity created by men? There is a twofold answer to that question: (1.) It is true that the theological term “Trinity” is created by men. The reason for this is to help explain an otherwise complex and difficult doctrine on the triune nature and Person of God. (2.) The doctrine of the “Trinity” or triune nature of God has its roots in the Holy Scriptures. Though this doctrine is difficult to understand, yet it is revealed and taught in the Bible, as we will soon see.
I was much edified and encouraged by the excellent definition on the triune nature and Person of God as defined in the Athanasian Creed you so kindly quoted in your paper. You said that the Creed was “preposterous to say that the three persons in the Godhead are incomprehensible, uncreated, and are not three, but one being.” I strongly disagree. It is not “preposterous” to say that God has revealed Himself in the Scriptures as three distinct Persons, yet co-existing as One God. This can be seen in Matthew 28:19, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” [5](KJV). Notice the word “name” in this verse is in the singular, and NOT in the plural. If each member of the Godhead was a separate God, the word “name” would be in the plural form, “names.” This verse makes a strong case for the “three-in-one” concept for the triune nature of God. However, this verse alone does not teach the whole doctrine on the triune nature of God. Good and correct doctrine requires that one compare Scripture with Scripture until one arrives at a healthy understanding of the doctrine under consideration. Perhaps you are still thinking that the “Three-in-one” concept of the nature of God is preposterous. Remember, the Bible never asks us to fully comprehend the triune nature of God; it asks us to accept the concept of the Trinity as it is revealed in the Scriptures. In reference to the Trinity, Augustine of Hippo once said, “If you can understand it, it is not God!” Referring to this quote Alister E. McGrath makes this statement on the same page, “Augustine rightly pointed out that no human mind could ever fully comprehend God, but we must at least try to understand who God is and what He is like.”[6]
Now you mentioned two
specific words in your statement against the triune nature of God. They are as
follows: incomprehensible; uncreated.
1.
Incomprehensible: The term
here means, “Impossible to comprehend or understand.” The doctrine of the
Trinity as already mentioned cannot be fully understood. Our understanding of
the nature of God is limited. (See Isa. 55:8-9; Rom. 11:33; 1 Cor. 13:12).
2.
Uncreated: We owe our
existence to God (see Gen. 1:26-27; 2:7; Psalm 100:3); yet God owes His
existence to no one (see Isa. 43:10). There is only one true God (see Isa.
44:6, 8; 45:5; 46:9).
Deuteronomy 6:4, “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is
one LORD.” (KJV).
Here we have the truth of the Oneness of God in plurality declared. Let us take
a closer look at this verse. The verse begins, “Hear, O Israel,” which
means, “pay close attention; I have something important to say about God.” Then
the author of this verse declares, “The LORD [Jehovah: singular] our God [Elohim: plural] is one
LORD [Jehovah: singular].” Now this
brings us to the point I alluded to earlier about the meaning “God.” In the
Hebrew, it is Elohim, which is a plural noun for
who He is in Himself. He is three distinct Persons, yet one God. He is not
three Persons in one Person. He is three Persons in one Godhead (see Col. 2:9).
Next, you went on to confirm what you believe about the nature of God, “We firmly
believe that God the Father, and His Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are
three separate beings.” This is the ancient heresy of tritheism, which
teaches that
there are three gods, instead of one. This is
what is called polytheism, which is a pagan doctrine. Such a doctrine is not
taught in the Scriptures. The Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God (see 2
Sam. 7:22; Psalm 86:10; Isa. 44:6; John 5:44; 17:3; Rom. 3:29-30; 16:27; Gal.
3:20; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:9; 1 Tim. 1:17; 2:5; 1 John 5:20-21; Jude 25). Then
you continued with, “We firmly declare that God the Father and Jesus
Christ have individual bodies of flesh and bone, whereas the Holy Ghost is a
personage of spirit.” I will
address this problem now in the Scripture passages you used to prove and
support your position on your above statement.
First, you
quoted Genesis 1:26-27, “And God said, let us make man
in our image, after our
likeness:...So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he
him;..” Then you argued, “Here we see there's more
than one person next to God in whose image we are created. We can also see that
we, with our physical body, were created in His image. If our image is a
physical body and we are after His image, God must have a physical body as
well. Through the Bible, we also know that Jesus has a resurrected, tangible
body (see Matthew 28; Mark 16; Luke 24; John 20; Acts 1:1-3) and God's person
is the “express image” of Jesus Christ's person and they are two separate
beings (Hebrews 1:1-3).” Of course the pronouns “us” and “our” refers to
more than one Person. But notice who is speaking here, “God.” Remember
what I said earlier about God. The Hebrew word for God here is “Elohim,” which
is a plural noun, or a plural singular term. If we are talking about three
separate gods as you say, then the word “God” would
read “gods.” So the pronouns “us” and “our” refers
back to the speaker, “God.” Another interesting fact:
The term “God” is mentioned no less than 31 times throughout Genesis chapter
one. Hence, emphasizing the theme of the chapter “God as the Originator,
Creator, and sustainer of all things.”
Now as for our being made in “the
image of God,” remember, understanding words are just as important as
understanding the context of a verse, as already noted. One of the laws of
Hermeneutics is to let Scripture interpret Scripture. So what
does it mean to be created in the image of God? Does God have flesh and bones
such as we have? Firstly, to begin with God is not
an exalted man. In Hosea 11:9 we read, “For I am
God, and not man.” (KJV). Numbers 23:19, “God is not a man, that he
should lie;..” The
Apostle Paul writing to the saints at Rome, writes, “Professing
themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the
uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible
man,..” (Rom. 1:22-23). According to your doctrine you have the
uncorruptible God made into the likeness of corruptible man. In other words,
you have men worshipping an exalted man. Isaiah 45:12 says, “I have
made the earth, and created man upon it:..” Here we see a distinction
being made between the Creator and the created. Secondly, God is
not like man in that He is invisible [cannot be seen]. (See John
1:18; Col. 1:15; 1 Tim. 1:17). God differs from us in that His invisibility
shows that He does not have a physical body like we have. Thirdly, God is
not a glorified man in the sense that God is a Spirit. John 4:24
states, “God is a Spirit.” The Lord
Jesus Christ says, “Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself:
handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and
bones, as ye see me have.”
Even the Book of Mormon calls God a spirit, “Holy, holy
God; we believe that thou art God, and we believe that thou art holy, and that
thou wast a spirit, and that thou art a spirit, and that
thou wilt be a spirit forever.” (Alma 31:15).
God is called a “Great Spirit” in Alma 18:4-5; 19:25-27;
22:9-11. We see a total of eleven times the term “Great Spirit” is
mentioned in these passages in the Book of Mormon. If God has “flesh and bones”
as you have argued, then why do these passages contradict that by stating that
God is a Spirit?
So if man was not made in
the physical likeness of God, then in what way was he created in the image of
God? There are three specific ways that man is created in the image of God.
They are as follows:
(1.) He is a finite
reflection of God in his rational nature (Col. 3:10); (2.) in his moral nature
(Eph. 4:24); (3.) and in his dominion over God's creation (Gen. 1:27-28). Just
as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so man in a finite sense reflects the
image of God who created him in His image. So man is a limited reflection of
God in these areas.
Second, your next point deals with
the baptism of Jesus: Your argument is as follows, “An account that shows
very clearly that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost being three
separate beings is found at Jesus baptism by John. This account is found in
Matthew 3:13-17; Mark 1:9-11; and Luke 3:21-22 and tells of Jesus in His
physical body is baptized and straightway out of the water, the Holy Ghost, as
a separate entity, descended like a dove. Then God spoke from the heavens
saying: “This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” To suggest
that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are the same person in
this account, suggests that Jesus had a split personality, and was practicing
ventriloquism which is plain foolishness.” There are two ancient heresies
mentioned in your argument here. First, you affirm that God is three separate
beings, which is tritheism. A belief which Christians like I reject. Second,
you then accuse Christians in your statement, “the same person,” of
believing in modalism: which teaches the view that the Father, Son, and Holy
Ghost are simply three modes of manifestation as opposed to three Persons in
the one Godhead. The Book of Mormon seems to support this view of which I
strongly reject (see Mosiah 15:1-5; Ether 3:14). As mentioned earlier in this
paper, No, I do not believe that there are “three persons in one person,” but
rather “three Persons in one Godhead.” Let me explain in this way: The Father
is not the Son, the Son is not the Father; the Father is not the Holy Ghost,
the Holy Ghost is not the Father; the Son is not the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost
is not the Son. (Please see the diagram: Num.1 of this at the end of this
paper). So then, if I believed in the heresy of modalism, you would be correct
in stating that “Jesus had a split personality, and was practicing
ventriloquism” which is indeed an absurdity. In the next
paragraph, you argue your same point, believing that I hold to the heretical
belief of modalism. You quote, “if the three are the same
person, suggests this same thing, such as Jesus praying to the Father...” Then you
went on to quote such Scriptures as Matthew 26:39; Luke 22:42; John 17 and
others. To answer your argument here, I will define the Trinity as it is
revealed in the Scriptures. The Trinity is based on three lines of Biblical
evidence:
1.
The
evidence that there is only one true God.
2.
The
evidence that there are three Persons that are equally God.
3.
The
evidence for the three-in-oneness in the Godhead.
·
The Bible teaches the concept of only one God (see
Deut. 6:4; 32:39; 2 Sam. 7:22; Psalm 86:10; Isa. 43:10; 44:6; 45:5-6, 14,
21-22; 1 Cor. 8:4; Jam. 2:19, and many others).
·
All three Persons are God. The Father is God
(see 1 Peter 1:2); the Lord Jesus is God (see John 20:28;
Heb. 1:8); the Holy Ghost is God (see Acts 5:3-4).
·
All three Persons in one Godhead (see Matt. 28:19; 2
Cor. 13:14).
Third, you then move on to
address John 10:30. You stated, “Now to address the
passage that says, in John 10:30 among similar others, “I and my
Father are one.” This is not literal.
It has been shown that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three
separate persons; yet, Jesus mentions they are one. They are not one in person,
but one in purpose as shown in John 5:19 (19-23). To say they are one in
entity, from this passage, refutes the other instances that show the three are
separate beings.” Then you continue your argument by your continual
belief that I hold to the Father and Son as one in the selfsame person, of
which I already argued that I do not believe that. Your argument continues to
be from a modalistic view, which is heretical. Now as for the verse under
consideration, John 10:30, “I and my Father are one.” Remember
what I said earlier about the importance of words. Well, the word “one” in this
verse is interesting. It does not mean the Father and Son are
one in Person as you think I believe, nor are they one in purpose as you claim.
No, they are one in essence. Noted Greek scholar, Dr. Spiros Zodhiates
explains: “Heis means one numerically while hen means one
in essence, as in John 10:30; “I and my Father are
one(hen)” (i.e., one in essence although two different
personalities). Had it said heis, it would
have meant one person.”[7] Both the
Father and Son are in one Godhead, not one in person.
Fourth, Finally I
will deal with your challenge now to explain the passage mentioned in John
17:11. You said, “If God the Father and Jesus Christ are one entity,
explain the passage mentioned by John in chapter 17, verse 11: “And now I
am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy
Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they
may be one, as we are.” (See also Rom. 12:5; 1 Cor. 6:17, and Gal. 3:28).” Again, I
do not believe that the Father and Jesus Christ are one entity. They are one in
essence as relating to the Godhead, not one in person. The phrase, “they may
be one, as we are,” (17:11) and “they may be one, even as
we are one” (17:22). This
speaks of oneness of unity with God as with one another. “Obviously, believers
cannot be one with either the Father or the Son in every way the persons of the
Godhead are one with each other, for we are not God.”[8] Now to continue your
argument, “We full well know what Jesus means when saying these
words, but if we are to take the meaning that the Father and Christ are one in
entity, we must say that for these passages. If we do so, then we may full well
say we are one in Christ and Christ is one in the Father. Does this mean we too
are part of the Trinity? Again, you mention “one in entity” as if that was
what I believe to be the case. No, I do not hold to the modalistic view as previously
argued. To conclude with such a view would eventually lead us to being part of
the Trinity. Finally, we agree on something. As you said, “of course
we are not..” I quite agree with you there. That would be
preposterous!
To argue that Christians believe that the Trinity consists of three
person in one person, or “are one in entity,” which is the old heresy of
modalism, shows that Mormons “do err, not knowing the
scriptures, nor the power of God.” (Matt. 22:29).
In conclusion, there is a lot about the Trinity that cannot be fully
understood. But that does not disprove the Trinity. Actually, it proves quite
the opposite. Perhaps the strongest evidence for the Trinity (or the tri-unity of the nature of God) is in
the very fact that we cannot fully comprehend this doctrine. Therefore, this
doctrine could not have originated from man, but rather from God. Author, Dean
C. Halverson quite agrees. He writes: “The difficulty of understanding and
explaining the concept of the Trinity is, in fact, evidence for its divine
origin. It is unlikely that such a concept would be invented by mere humans.”[9]
Sincerely:
Jerry Sheppard.
[1] Paul
F. Achtemeier, Harper's Bible Dictionary, (Ed. 1985), pg. 1099 (Emphasis added).
[2] The Church of England's “Prayer Book.”
[3] Bible used is standard King James Version.
[4] Genesis 1:26-27; Matt. 3:16-17; 11:27;
12:31-32; 17:5; 26:39; 28:19; Mark 9:7; Luke 1:32; 3:21-22; 9:35; 10:22;
24:36-39; John 3:16-17 and 35; 5:19, 22 and 43; 8:17-18; 12:28-29; 13:3;
14:7-12, 26 and 28; 15:26; 16:7 and 23-28; 17:3 and 20-23; 20:17; Acts 2:36;
7:55-56; 17:29; Romans 8:34; Eph. 3:9 and 14; 1 Tim. 2:5; Hebrews 1:1-3; 1 John
5:7-8.
[5] See the parallel baptism
account to this verse in 3 Nephi 11:27.
[6] Alister E. McGrath ,
Understanding the Trinity, (Academie
Books; Zondervan Publishing House; Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1990), pg. 9
[7] Spiros Zodhiates, The Hebrew-Greek
Key Study Bible (KJV), (AMG Publishers, Chattanooga, TN, 1991), pg. 1711.
[8] Ted Cabal [Gen. Editor], The
Apologetics Study Bible, (Holman Bible Publishers, Nashville , Tennessee
[9] Dean
C. Halverson, The Compact Guide to World Religions, (Bethany House Publishers, Minneapolis, Minnesota, 1996), pg. 113.
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